My new (old) little .177 bullpup.
Printed From: Kiwi Airgunners
Category: Target Shooting and Clubs
Forum Name: Target Shooting
Forum Description: Think you are a good shot? Show is in here!
URL: www.kiwiairgunners.co.nz/forum_posts.asp?TID=820
Printed Date: 15 May 2024 at 3:25pm
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Topic: My new (old) little .177 bullpup.
Posted By: RangerPete
Subject: My new (old) little .177 bullpup.
Date Posted: 30 May 2023 at 9:43pm
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Finally managed to get a few shots through a little .177 I recently acquired. Had to wait for some JSB exact’s to arrive. Quite happy with these initial results. This is a 5 shot group at 25m. Can you guess what type of rifle it is…? 😉  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Replies:
Posted By: jwabfrog
Date Posted: 31 May 2023 at 9:11am
| Not a Norica Viratus? |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 31 May 2023 at 9:31am
| Nicely accurate at 25m rifle is my guess. |
Posted By: Billbobnz
Date Posted: 31 May 2023 at 2:39pm
| not one of those funny russian bullpup thingy? |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 31 May 2023 at 5:43pm
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Hummm… 🤔 Its usual guise is not actually a bullpup, this one has been redressed. It previously belonged to another member of this forum, some one who likes to tinker… 😂😂😂 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2023 at 7:46pm
| What's the prize for the correct answer? |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2023 at 9:32pm
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😂😂😂 The winner gets an ice cream. Any one else got any pics of impressive groups they have shot? And the rifle they shot it with? ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2023 at 9:48pm
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Here are some groups I shot with my Mk2 Impact. 7 x 4 shot groups at 50m. Inside, so no wind, but great accuracy for rabbits  And here's another group shot through a Sytong HT60 with an Edgun Matador. 
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Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2023 at 11:16pm
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Nice groups from both guns. You’ve exceeded the mythical “one ragged at 40” I’m jealous! 😂 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2023 at 9:23pm
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Here she is. Quite a sexy little thing I do say. An Air Arms S510 FAC, although at the moment she is not at FAC power levels. She is currently set at about 12fpe. But as the above pic shows, she can hold a pretty tight group.  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2023 at 9:57pm
| A thing of beauty! |
Posted By: jwabfrog
Date Posted: 04 Jun 2023 at 9:11am
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Very nice, who built the stock? |
Posted By: Billbobnz
Date Posted: 04 Jun 2023 at 4:14pm
| That is an awesome looking gun |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 04 Jun 2023 at 5:51pm
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The stock was built by a very clever guy up north. He is an engineer and made all the metal work which includes scope rail/ airtube clamps and trigger linkage. Stock was originally made to convert a Marauder rifle into a bullpup for a while, but later adapted slightly to accomodate this AA S510. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 10:37am
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Jawbfrog, I bought it from Paul, so as he says above… 👍🏻 I took her out yesterdaay afternoon for her first pesting mission. Got 2 pigeons and about 7 mynas 👍🏻 I’m in need of a good scope for her. There were two auctions on trwdeme that I had been watching which closed yesterday afternoon, but I was so busy having fun I completely forgot to put in my last minute bids… Was so cross with my self 😡😡😡  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 4:28pm
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So I’ve named my little S510. I’ve called her Elly. I needed to get some super high rings which have taken a while to get, but eventually I got them. I’ve just fitted a 6-24x50 FFP scope, on the super high QD rings, might be a bit of an overkill, but it’s a nice scope and I’m happy with it. Now all I need is somewhere to go shoot where I can zero the scope. It sucks living in the middle of town and not being able to shoot in my back yard.  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 9:56pm
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Looks like she's in good hands. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 11:45pm
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Managed to zero the scope today after work. I’m really chuffed with this group 👍🏻 I think I get some bragging rites 😂 7 shot group at 25m with JSB exact 8.44gr CTC 6mm  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2023 at 7:46am
| I wouldn't expect anything less. That gun used to make me giggle at some shots it produced. It'll be interesting to see your groups at longer distances when you get a chance. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2023 at 9:48pm
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Took Elly out for her first bit of rabbit control tonight. Was a cold night, but not raining, so I went for a walk around a new permission. With a thermal scope on Elly I set off with my shooting sticks, head light, double layers of tracksuit pants and Stoney ridge fleeces and a spare little mag in my back pocket. I should have put the whole tin of JSB exacts into my back pocket because I ran out of ammo half way round my lap of the paddocks 😡. I could easily have taken twice as many rabbits if I had more pellets with me. I lost count somewhere around 10, but I think the final number of bunnies left sleeping in the darkness was around 14. Not bad for just over an hours work/walk. Definatly need to plan a few more visits back to this new permission. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: flock
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2023 at 4:09pm
Guy rubbished this rifle when I bought it, gave him some shots Wednesday, he has changed his mind. can't figure out how to send a picture? |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2023 at 9:35pm
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Hi Flock, What rifle is that? Sure seems to shoot nicely to me 👍🏻 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2023 at 9:56pm
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He can't argue with that. You have to tell us what it is now. If it's a springer that's outstanding. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2023 at 10:16pm
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Took Elly out for a walk again tonight. Went to a permission I haven’t been to in about a month. Well, it’s actually two permissions next to each other. The property’s belong to an Uncle and his nephew. Combined they are about 15 acres of paddocks, gates and fences 😂. It was actually a nice night, had two short spells of light drizzel, then the stars came out! I find with these flat horse property’s it is more productive to walk around quietly in the dark looking for rabbits, there is just too much area to cover to sit quietly and wait. These two property’s share a common boundary with a third property, and as Murphy would have it, all the rabbits seem to be on the other side of the fence, the side I don’t have permission to shoot 😡 Managed to get 12 tonight. This little AirArms S510 in a bullpup stock is such a sweet little rifle. At 12fpe it is so quiet aswell. The hammer spring makes more noise then the muzzel. I can’t fathom why it’s previous owner would have ever wanted to sell it… 🤔😂 It seems crazy that this little .177 shoots an 8.44gr pellet, when compared to the 30gr .22 slug the dream line is shooting. That is almost a quarter of the weight of the slug. A quarter of the weight!!! And at 30 and 40m, those bunnies just keel over, every bit as dead as when they’r hit by a 30grain slug 😉 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2023 at 12:04am
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I'm glad you are getting good use with it. Yes It makes me miss it, but it wasn't getting used, so it's no good sitting in the safe, and it gives me joy to hear what it's up to. |
Posted By: flock
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2023 at 7:26am
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It's a Wildcat sniper m3, were cherry picked, shows its capable.
Something else I noticed at 25m it shot well on setting 4 and at 50m setting 5, 100m setting 6 know setting 6 approx 900 fps.
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Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2023 at 5:39pm
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Have a new challenge for Elly. Been asked to attend to some pigeons roosting and nesting in an entrance hall of a building. Only about a 10m shot, not difficult at all. But, there is a glass roof above where the pigeons roost… 🤔🤔🤔 So, I’ve turned the power down to minimum and changed pellets to an “Air Chief, 8.18gr wad cutter”. At 10m it’s putting pellet after pellet through the same hole, so accuracy is not a problem, it’s the power that’s worrying me. The goal is to have enough powder to kill a pigeon at 10m, dump all the pellets energy into the pigeon (hence the wad cutter) but not exit the pigeon! After days of grey skies and off and on rain, I finally managed to get a gap of sunshine and chronograph it today, and those wad cutters are doing 501fps. That gives a power of 4,56FPE. Should be about rite 🤔. Tomorrow I will test it on an apple at 10m, hopefully it will not exit. But what I really need is a pigeon or two to use as test subjects before trying the entrance hall. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: flock
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2023 at 10:22pm
| Put a something equivalent behind the apple, although a apple is easier to penertrate, feathers are a different ball game. Polymag Predators would be my pick at that distant & speed. Still aim for the thick chest area. Set scope up for the required range so you don't have to think about aim points. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2023 at 6:50pm
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Hi Flock, At 4.5fpe I don’t think the polymags are going to do anything, or certainly no more then any other type of hunting or even domed pellet would do 😂. Which is why I went with wad cutters, at that low poundage they should hit the hardest. Pete. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2023 at 7:26pm
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Miserable day today, but I managed to get out to one of my permissions and asked if I could use their bottom paddock which I turned into a little shooting range. Wind was strong enough to keep blowing our camp chairs over 😡 and the light rain was cold, but it was still nice to get out and do a bit of shooting. It’s like therapy for me… So I tested Elly and the apple today… It was a small apple, only about 60mm diameter. The 4.5fpe .177 wad cutter unfortunately exited the apple, knocking it off its pedestal. Second shot did the same again. I then put a backstop behind the apple and tried it a third time. Wad cutter exited, and lodged into the wood behind it. But was only lightly embedded in the wood… 🤔    An interesting side note is that my sons little gamo delta fox shooting a domed pellet at 3.8fpe (so only slightly less power) was also shooting stright through the apple, but didn’t knock it off it’s pedestal. So both pellets have enough energy to pass through the apple, but the wad cutter is delivering more energy into the apple and thus knocking it over. Not convinced with todays results, I managed to get out to another permission where I know there are some pigeons and just before dark I managed to bag a pigeon, and a rabbit 😂. So tomorrow morning I’ll do some pigeon testing 👍🏻 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: flock
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2023 at 9:46pm
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It's that rock and a hard place, more speed more expansion less speed more penatration more so with with powder burners, than pellets. I stuffed up and bought some crosman hollow points, only to find they are as hard a hell don't expand at all, JBS are way softer. Only suggested the polymags cause was talking to a guy recently & he was impressed, gave him some of my favourites JSB Hades but he still reckoned the polymags expanded better, tried them way back but not accurate at longer distances. I once whacked a pigeon with my HW80 running at 17ftp with wad cutter and smack was the word, was really pissed off when I could find the dam thing, lession on wad cutters and feathers apparently feather can get twisted up & stop penertration. here comes the old saying 22 for fur and 177 for feathers. I have been doing pigeons in tin shed horse stable at night with snap shots at 4 metres, only get 2 or 3 if lucky, first lession was set the gun up for that distance as no time to think, I'm using the same night vision as you have. The steel shed is tuffer than glass, have screwed up & had pass threws but got away with it. I was using 22 hades turned down to ~ 600 fps. Been tempted to try the 22lr with bird shot, close range. Someone needs to produce a pellet that is flangable & disintegrated for such missions. Good Luck
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Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2023 at 9:31am
| Maybe try the heaviest pellet you can. I use 18 grn JSB at around 11 fpe for pigeons. But it does depend on where you hit them, as there's not much resistance inside the bird unless you hit bone or wings. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2023 at 10:11am
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Paul, There might be some merit in using a heavier pellet. I’ll do some comparison testing today on apples. I’ve got the 8.18gr wad cutters, I’ll skip the 8.44 domed exacts they zip straight through apples, hades I think are about 10gr I’ve got some of those (but not expecting any expansion with low velocity) and I’m sure I had a few old tins of heavier things. I’m almost sure I still have some VERY heavy pile drivers 🤔 they look like little logs! Quite long, I hope they fit in the magazine! ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2023 at 5:15pm
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Been an interesting day of testing… Rummaged through my old .177 pellets and chose the following 4 to test: JSB Hades 10.34gr Gamo TS-10 10.49gr H&N rabbiter which I weighed a long time ago at 15.56gr And the Piledriver at 21gr. The piledrivers are very long and need to be pushed gently into the AA magazine. I was also worried about them being too heavy to exit the barrel at this low velocity 🫣, but they did. Decided not to test the gamo TS-10 as it is just a domed version of the hades.  Shot a pellet from each through an apple and put a piece of wood behind to catch incase the pellet made it through the apple. Shot the wad cutter as a control pellet. The 15.56gr rabbiter was way off poa, so far that it eliminated its self and got no further testing. The wadcutter, hades and piledriver all penetrated the apple and embedded into the wood. The pileriver landed next to the hades, and squashed it! what are the chances….? The take away from this for me was that although all 3 pellets were shot from the same rifle, same power level, the heavy piledriver (which would have been traveling much slower) went deeper into the wood. So it seems the heavier pellet carry’s more momentum (thats just physics), but it didnt transfer that energy into the target, possibly because of the shape of the projectile?  I then got out Maurice, our fearless volunteer pigeon. I tried to set him up in a position similar to the shot I would be presented with, I.e. steep uphill. I put a piece of paper behind Maurice to tell if any pellets exited the bird.  I fired 5 wad cutters into the crop/breast area, hoping to reach vitals, but not exit. The good news is…. None of the wad cutters exited!!! I then shot a wadcutter into the back of the bird, again trying to reach the vitals, followed by a pile driver in the back. Nothing exited. Lastly I fired 3 piledrivers into the crop/breast area, again hoping to reach vitals. All 3 of the piledrivers exited the bird, through the paper and into the pellet trap!!! Again, the piledrivers weigh two and a half times more than the wadcutters, but should be traveling much slower, so they should have about the same FPE. But they penetrate like hell! Imagine if those piledrivers had a huge hollow point and could mushroom and dump all their energy into the target! Deadly!  My fingers are showing the directions the shots were taken in. So that answered the question of will a 4,5FPE 8.18gr wad cutter exit a pigeon at 8 or 10m. No, they don’t. Yay! The next question I have is did they penetrate far enough to reach vitals? To answer that I had to do a pigeon disection. This was my first time dissecting a pigeon, and boy did I learn a lot!!! If u intend shooting any pigeons I would highly recomend you dissect one, their anatomy is nothing like what you think it is!!! So what did I learn? Well, a pigeons crop extends way further down the chest than what I thought it did! I thought I was taking crop/breast shots, no, they were mostly crop shots. When the crop is full it is big, and holds a lot of seeds and corn. This just means more stuff for your pellet to get through before u reach vitals 🤔. Maybe something to think about when shooting pigeons feeding during the day, verses shooting them at night when they r roosting and their crops are empty. I also learnt the breast meat is thick and red, (and looks delishious!) and is more stuff to get through to reach the vitals, although from a different angle to the crop. I also learnt that the heart is fairly large and is protected behind a huge shield called the sternum, and the breast mussels. It is also positioned way further down the body than I would have ever imagined! It’s closer to the drumsticks than it is to the neck. Infact, a shot through the back would be much easier to reach the heart and lungs than from the front or from below (typical uphill shot at a pigeon). I also learnt that what I though was a “in the back shot”, trying to take the easy route to the vitals, was actually way to far down the back, they were actually more like kidney shots! So where did the wad cutters end up? One I couldn’t find, 1 I recovered deep in the crop, around the wishbone. One deep in the breast mussel, one went through the crop into the neck, One just into the lung, and the last one was in the heart. I think the one in the heart was the shot from the back. The piledriver sent into the back (lower back) I found at the base of the neck.  Pellets recovered from the pigeon. So more questions… This is a very particular situation, steep uphill shot that I do not want to exit. Will the wadcutters exit? I don’t think so. Will they kill the pigeons dead on the spot? I don’t think so. Will they kill the pigeons and solve the problem? I believe so. Would a slightly heavier pellet, like the 10,34gr hades penetrate deeper into vitals but still not exit? Maybe. I think we’re making progress and have a possible solution, but I also feel more testing is needed to find the best pellet and set up for this specific situation. Pete. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2023 at 5:17pm
| I think at that low power 10.3 heavies are probably the max id go. But you can squeak that power up a touch if required. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 4:40pm
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I attended to the pigeons on Monday night, after the pub had closed and everyone had gone home. Went past this afternoon and there were no pigeons to be seen. Seems we might have succeeded 👍🏻. But I’d still like to keep testing to work out what the perfect pellet, speed and penetration combination is for any further tricky pigeon problems. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2023 at 5:09am
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How in hell did you ever kill the first pidgin with such little understanding of thier anatomy? Lucky head shots are pretty strait forward. Great review of pellets, great to see real results from actual subject testing. At 10m buy a low power pistol and put a stock on it. I've shot sparrows in the wool shed with the 1322 at lower pumps and no over penitrate and hit roof. That breast meat is delious. Pidgeonz taste great. Out rank duck meat. 10 fold |
Posted By: flock
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2023 at 8:12am
| Did you use your night vision? Still vote for pollymags at short distance or havn't used them the gamo redfires. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2023 at 6:23pm
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Got the first one like I’ve shot all the other pigeons I’ve shot, Same way everyone else does it, by not worrying about shoot throughs (plenty of space out in a paddock) and using way more than necessary FPE 😂😂😂 and shooting center of mass 😂. Have shot plenty of pigeons before, and hundreds of mynas, but never needed to not over penetrate before, so it was only when I started this journey to find out min power required that I had the need to dissect a pigeon to determine penetration, and that’s when I found out their heart is halfway down towards their poophole… 😂😂😂 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2023 at 6:24pm
Yes, used the Pulasr Thermion 👍🏻. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
flock wrote:Posted By: flock
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2023 at 7:38pm
| Wow nice kit. Only got a cheapy handheld, its very handy for basic finding. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2023 at 8:18pm
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Ja it is an amazing piece of kit. Unfortunately it is not mine, but I’m lucky enough to be able to get to use it 👍🏻 For pest control it is a game changer. For hunting, it feels like cheating! So I only use it for pest control 👍🏻 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2023 at 9:35pm
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I have a thermal spotter, and game changer it is, but often struggle to see game with IR to shoot it, so I can imagine it's great. You can't really beat using glass and I guess that's what you mean Pete. Do you record these events to share? |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2023 at 12:03pm
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What I mean is the thermal scope is amazing for finding game (pests/rabbits) in the darkness of night. It makes it possible to quickly and easily shoot 20 or 30 rabbits in a few hours, in total darkness. For me that’s culling/pest control, and the thermal scope is an amazing tool for that job. Hunting, for me, is very different. For me hunting revolves around the principles of “fair chase”, meaning the animal should have every chance and opportunity to use its well developed senses of hearing, sight and smell, it’s ability to be stealthy, to use its natural camouflage etc, to outwit the hunter. The animal deserves the opportunity to be able to escape unhindered if it detects me (no cages or fences), I also don’t hunt from a vehicle or with in 200m of a vehicle. I believe in walk and stalk. Getting close, on foot. Stalking is sadly a dying art these days. For me, to be a hunter you need to see the animal before it sees you. You need to approach the animal with out being detected (that’s called stalking for the millennials), and get as close as you possibly can before you make your lethal shot to take that animals life. When you have done a perfect stalk, when you have been staring at that animal for ages, when you can see it’s eyes, but it hasn’t seen you, when you have been focused and fixated on it while planning your approach, feeling and reading the wind and keeping it in your favour, when you have felt your pulse racing and noticed your hands trembling as you close in… then you are hunting! Not bashing anyone or how they may choose to hunt, but in my humble opinion shooting an animal from 600m away is not hunting, it’s target practice. You don’t need to get out into the bush to do that, you can do it at any shooting range. If someone thinks killing an animal from half a kilometer away is hunting, then they have missed the whole point of going on a hunt. Weather I’m hunting a stag or a warthog or a rabbit, and weather I’m using a rifle or a bow, it dosent matter, the principles of fair chase still need to apply if I want to call it a hunt. For me a thermal scope is an amazing tool, it is the pinnacle of our species technological marvels and inventions… but it dosent feature in the principles of Fair Chase. It dosent just tip the balance in the hunters favour, it completely skewes the odds. Fricken amazing pest control tool though 😉 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2023 at 1:13pm
| Bow hunting with a gun. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2023 at 9:17am
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I'm in 2 minds on that. I can see your point but query your view on distance shooting. You have to be out there to find the animals, which in itself is hunting. Your Activly looking for an animal to shoot. That's hunting. Stalking is a differnt thing. I'd also point out deer are pest animal, and as you say thermals are wonderful for pest control. If I'm looking for food, why wouldn't I take a long shot? I'm not there to play cat and mouse. Do you consider a 60m shot on hare in an open paddock hunting? I do, Im still out there, fact the hare is in the open and I won't get any closer doesn't lessen that. The skill needed to to shoot that distance is higher (I'm a springer shooter). I apply the same to any animal. Don't get me wrong the object of the hunt is to get as close as possible without spooking (for shot assurity) but if the opertunity arises for a long shot... its what guns were designed to do. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2023 at 6:18pm
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If the closest you can get to a hare is 60m, with no cover, and if u approached any closer the animal would become aware of u, and has a fair chance of escaping, then no problem, that’s hunting. You’ve gotten as close as you can get, using ur skills and bush craft to remain undetected. You have pitted your sences and your skills against that animal’s. With an air rifle, a 60m shot is a long shot, (I know some people will say “well I shoot golf balls at 160m” Ja fine, good for you, but for the rest of us 60m is still a long shot) but if your equipment is capable of being accurate at that distance, and u are confident you can pull of the shot, then go for it 👍🏻 But someone sitting on their quad bike on top of this hill and using their 80x spotting scope to glass not the next hill, but the one behind that… that’s not hunting, it’s game viewing. And if you take a shot at that animal half a kilometer and two hills away, and used your balistic app to work out how many mills you need to hold over and your blue tooth kestrel to measure wind speed which connects to the app and corrects for you, it’s not hunting, it’s target practise. But that’s just my opinion. You are so far away you can’t possibly have any emotional connection with your quarry, you haven’t out smarted it, you have “out technologies” it, well done, there is no element of fair chase, because u havent even attempted to chased it at all, and you have missed the point of going on a hunt. Does shooting a 10inch metal gong at 600m give you “buck fever”? No, because it’s not hunting. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that there is no skill involved in hitting a target at long range. I completely appreciate the skill that is required. But shooting an animal that’s so far away you can’t see it with the naked eye, is not hunting to me. Many others will differ, and that’s fine, it’s just my opinion 👍🏻 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2023 at 6:42pm
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I agree with what you say about fair chance and respect for animal, the actual thrill of the stalk and trying to play the quarries senses. That however does not dictate what and what isn't hunting really. Sitting on quad and shooting long distance is no differnt to me walking a paddock with a spot light, picking up a hares eyes and shooting. With a 22lr I can honestly say the shooting range will extend substantially at which I shoot at. The alienation of the animal shot at distance ends when you get to it. When you pluck it/skin it, butcher it. But as you say , its my view needn't be anyone else's. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2023 at 7:31pm
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Forget the quad, forget the field or binoculars, how about negotiating a bottom hung window with a pigeon 1.5 m away. My wife was my spotter this week on a pigeon job. 
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Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2023 at 10:31pm
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Well can't be any fairer than wearing a high vis. And I thought I'd got into uncomfortable awkward positions! So did you get it? |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2023 at 10:34pm
| And at 1.5m be prepared to be ribbed merciless if ya didn't. Lol |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2023 at 11:04pm
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It was the hardest shot of the night. I had to hold the muzzle against the frame, and could barely see the bird, then think about hold over at that range, (more like how high is my scope off the barrel). Yes I got it. Not a clean kill but got it.
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Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2023 at 11:06pm
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😂😂😂 At 1.5m you aim for the very fuzzy and out of focus head, and hit it in the heart… 😂😂😂 In fact, it might be easier to not aim at all, just reach out as far as u can, stretch a smidget further and gently touch the muzzel up to its breast as u squeeze the trigger! 😂😂😂 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2023 at 11:12pm
| Maybe a pistol as well for those close jobs? 2250 stock? |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2023 at 7:36am
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I'll try that next time Pete. Kruz, good idea. In fact I used to use a Marauder pistol for this work, and I had a home made NV rig on it that used a reversing camera screen. I actually held the gun out the window and shot at right angles using the screen to aim.
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Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2023 at 7:49am
| 007 and Q combined. What happened to the rig? I watch Ted's holdover and you see him using a phone holder on his scope and ph. It looks like a rather pleasent way to shoot from a screen. Espially for older eyes starting thier decline. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2023 at 7:52am
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It also has me thinking a tree mounted gun with servos to to adjust height and direction. But that's just a little to James bond for me Lol |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2023 at 7:58am
| I still have it, but have been using the Sytong as it's a bit more compact. There will probably be old photos on here of it somewhere. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2023 at 8:21am
| Got any key words or phrases you used so I can use the search to find it. Even what topic you put it under? |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2023 at 11:35pm
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After my post on the 15 July, I’ve got an update on pellet penetration in pigeons. I needed a power tune and pellet combo that would kill a pigeon at close range (under 10m) but not over penetrate and exit the bird because of the glass roof up above them… 🤔 I setteled on a 8.14gr flat nosed match pellet, traveling at 501fps, which gave 4.8fpe. It was very accurate and did its job on a few pigeons, but after doing some penetration tests I was actually worried about under penetration… 🤔 I was worried the flat nose pellets were not penetrating deep enough to get through the breast mussels and into the heart/lung vitals, resulting in a slow death. Not ideal. Only about half of the test shots seemed to get deep enough to get to the vitals. I decided to change to JSB Exacts 8.44gr domed pellets, at the same power setting on the rifle. They are slightly heavier than the flat nosed pellets, but should give about the same FPE, but the domed shape should give better penetration, so I believed. The other night I got asked to attend to another pair of pigeons that have moved in and started nesting exactly where the previous pair was. I went down late at night and found the male sitting up very high, just under the glass roof… Humm. The female was on the nest, and besides a tight angle (she was on a shelf about 3m high), if i backed up a few meters I could just see her head. She had some weather board behind her so I was happy to take the shot. A pellet behind the eye removed the back of her head and she flapped to the floor where I retrieved her and put her in the back of the Ute. I looked at the male again, and again, and again…. So tempting. He was just sitting there right above me. But I kept telling my self, we’re expecting more penetration, but we don’t know how much!!! It’s just not worth taking a shot with that glass roof behind him. So out of frustration I threw a stick at him and it flew off out into the darkness! When I got home (close to midnight) I set up the recovered pigeon in front of my pellet trap and did some penetration tests with the domed exacts. Well, about half of the shots made it through to the heart/lungs, which is exactly what I wanted, the other half exited! Boy was I glad I had had enough self control to pass up the shot on the male! The pellets I recovered from the pellet trap had not been flattened, suggesting they had lost most of their energy traveling through the target and were probably only just making it out. I need to now chrono the JSB exacts 8.44gr and determine their fps and fpe. It’s nice to now have a choice of pellets and to know how each will perform 👍🏻 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2023 at 7:25am
| Why don't you put some glass behind your next test, or metal flashing to see how big the dent is. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2023 at 6:10pm
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Hummm… that’s not a bad idea. Where can I get some scrap pieces of glass from? Here is a pic of a pigeon teasing me, and the glass roof up above it 😂😂😂  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2023 at 6:31pm
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Should have popped it strait thru the breast. There's a lot of pellet slowing meat there. Breast bone, crop if it is full, feathers, then the heart etc, but they arn't that tough. Personally I'd have thought indoor shooting would be for a pumper. I've shot sparrows in the.woolshed with. Mine at 5 pumps and not had them go right thru. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2023 at 9:08am
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I used that same gun in a shopping centre for shooting sparrows. It had a big glass dome, so similar situation. I got a couple of small panes of off cuts from the local glass supplier for free. But like you, I still didn't want to risk it so I only shot at something that had a good back ground. For that pigeon there could you have moved position so a metal frame was behind it?
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Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2023 at 10:59am
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Looks like it Pauly. Shooting from the right of the picture and further back would put the center beam and two arms off it as back drop. I'll see if my mate on farm will let me pop a pidgeon and if so, I'll do a few shots into it and work out the fpe needed at target to not over penitrate which should put you in the ball park for trials. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2023 at 6:09pm
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That beam behind it is smaller then it looks 😂😂😂 And any sort of pellet path deviation inside the pigeon is going to result in a small change of the exit pellets trajectory… hummm 🤔 I keep telling my self that glass should be able to withstand a good hail storm, so should be at least 5mm thick…??? But still safer to wait for another day when I’ll catch him in a better position. Be interested to know what your FPE findings are Kruza. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2023 at 8:50pm
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If I get pidgeon. Hopefully tomorrow or the one in tree falls out in overnight wind. I'll be doing it in .22 out of 1322 so once I have the fpe and pellet at the distance, you'll have to do a reverse calculation for .177 using pellet weight and fpe at distance to get muzzle enerdy required I'll start low till get desired penitration then work up to pass through. Probly start at midrange of the required power for penitration to pass through as .177 tends to punch through better than .22 |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2023 at 11:38pm
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Ja, I think a .22 with its larger frontal area is able to transfer/dump more energy into the target, resulting in less penetration. This would be an interesting test to do, side by side… If we compared two theoretical pellets, a .177 and a .22, both at the same power level, let’s say 5fpe, they would have stats something like this… .177 JSB exact weighing 8,44gr @ 517fps gives 5.01FPE A .22 JSB exact weighing 15.89gr @ 377fps gives 5.02FPE Different size pellets, huge difference in weight (basically double), and a difference in velocity, BUT both projectiles are carrying the same amount of kinetic energy. In theory the .177 with its smaller frontal surface area should “slip through” the pigeon easier, requiring less force to travel through the medium, taking longer to transfer its energy into the target, resulting in further penetration. The .22 on the other hand, with its larger frontal surface area is going to meet more resistance from the pigeon, find it harder to push through the tissue, use more of it’s available energy to keep forward momentum and there for transfer energy into the target quicker, resulting is less penetration then the .177… In theory. To express that theory in a different way, a .22 projectile should require more FPE to penetrate to the same depth with in a given target, then a .177 projectile would require to penetrate to the same depth. Hummm… 🤔 Maybe we should be using low powered .22’s for close range pigeon work (where over penetration is not desirable). 🤔 Definatly more testing to be done. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2023 at 1:21pm
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Won't be no testing this weekend. I've had two hang in the trees, missed a couple of shots and they are spooky. ( Ive shot them for food a couple of times. They clue up fast nowadays) So unless one falls out of tree, I'm leaving them till next weekend. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2023 at 11:24pm
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I happened to be out for a walk last night when I met a bunny. I happened to also be carrying little Elly… Unlucky bunny…  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2023 at 1:42pm
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I’ve heard some good things about the Gamo 10X hollow point pellet, 7.56gr, so I thought I’d try some. Put them through my little Elly with some other knows for comparison. I had her set on low power because I’ve been doing some pigeon work, so I just left it there as I could only test at 10m at home anyay. Shot 5 shot group of the Gamo 10X, 5 shot group of the Air Chief target flap point 8.18gr, and 5 JSB exacts 8,44gr as a control group.. They did all right, I’d call it one ragged hole, but as usual nothing compares with the exacts 😉 What I found interesting was even though there is almost 1gr weight difference over the 3, the poi is identical for all of them. Nice to know if I’m ever in a pinch anyone of them will still be dead on 👍🏻  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2023 at 12:57pm
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I’m trying to build a website at the moment, and I needed a “wow” photo to show the kind of pest control that can be achieved if the rabbits are around. In the afternoon I checked the balistic calculator out to 60m, in a strong side wind 😡. I hate wind. Started with the nikko stirling 6-24x50 FFP, wanted to check it’s zero out at 60. Almost packed up before I had even started with that hard blowing side wind, then I thought to my self, use it as a training excersize, because I have very little experience shooting in strong wind, it just frustrates me so I usually go home 😂. First few shots were frustrating. At 30m I was aiming off by 6cm. Aiming for the middle swinger and hitting the one next to it! At 60m it was worse. Managed to work out the hold over and how far off to hold for the wind and got a decent 3 shot group at 60m Then switched to the Pard DS35. The balistic calculator worked out the drop correctly, and I had to hold off for the wind, but managed to get two shots on the spinners at 60m. Aim at the big one and hit the one next to it… 😂😂😂   I was actually quite chuffed with my self for beating the wind, so before it all went south I decided to call it on the spinners and go look for some rabbits. I had some work to do if I wanted to get that “wow” pic. Started at 2pm, walking slowly around and talking quietly to the horses, didnt see a rabbit for an hour! Eventually at around 3 they started slowly appearing and my shooting session started. The later it got the more rabbits came out. I managed to shoot a bunch, and then about another 8 that I couldn’t find. 5 hours later and sick and tired of climbing through electric paddock fences to retrieve dead rabbits, I finally got my photo.  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2023 at 12:59pm
Check out this little cream puff! ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2023 at 1:09pm
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Gee, that's impressive Pete. Just goes to show you don't need high power, just placement. I have a wind chart calculation I will try and dig up. You will find most FT or HFT shooters are excellent at this. Even using a bit of wool off the end of the gun, and using angle to judge the wind speed at the muzzle can help, especially if you don't have grass or trees to gauge off.
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Posted By: Billbobnz
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2023 at 2:05pm
| That's awesome Pete, nice work |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2023 at 2:12pm
| That's awsome number. Have you shot there before or this the first? |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2023 at 3:08pm
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Thanks guys. Was a busy afternoon. I’ve shot there once before, just an afternoon shoot. Was between giving the thermion back and getting the Pard so I couldn’t “see in the dark” 😂. Got 19 that afternoon. It’s a big property but there are still loads of rabbits there. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2023 at 10:44pm
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Went out to a very small permission tonight. It’s just a parking lot really, and two patches of grass. The owner keeps saying there are rabbits there, and I believe him, there is digging and scratching all along the edges of the drive way, but every time I stick my head in there and have a look around, there are never any rabbits there 😡. This afternoon I decided to do a stake out there. Bitterly cold wind blowing here today, so I parked in the parking lot at last light and sat in my nice warm ute for an hour. No rabbits to be seen. Just when I was considering calling it a night, I gave the thermal one last sweep around the parking lot and hey, what do u know, there’s a bunny! So I snuck out my ute, rifle in my one hand, shooting sticks in the other, crept around a bush, and shot him! He’s now sleeping in the back of my ute and I now have a test subject for the gamo 10x pellets tomorrow morning. I want to test them with a head shot at 10m and 4.5fpe, and see if they expand nicely. Might also try one or two body shots at 12fpe aswell. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2023 at 11:25pm
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Made it out to the bunny factory late this afternoon. Windy and drizzeling, bitterly cold wind. But as the evening went on the weather improved. But the wind was still bloody cold. I spent a few hours this morning making this cunning little devise…  Tested it out this evening and it works beautifully. Fits onto the passenger seat perfectly, and rests on the center console so it’s rock solid. I put some steps into it for close, medium and far shots, and an extra high step for uphill pigeon shots. Because the wind was so cold, I decided to just test the new rest all evening and didn’t even get out the ute 😂😂😂 too cold. Just to make you guys jealous that haven’t seen a rabbit in a while, I just idled around shooting out the passenger window, and I got 28 tonight. Although one was a left hand shot out the drivers side window 😂. This is the third time I’ve visited this property and I’ve now taken 85 rabbits there, and there are still plenty more to go 😳. I played with the video function on the pard DS35, and actually managed to get a video clip, which was actually the left handed shot. I’ll try post it, hopefully I’ll figure it out. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2023 at 11:30pm
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It says the video is the wrong file type 🤔 And I don’t know why the picture above is on its side? 😡 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2023 at 4:21pm
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Oops… I’m sure that’s not supposed to look like that! Quickly phoned Youngs and got another one on the way. Guess I’m going to be manually indexing the mag tonight 😂  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2023 at 8:48pm
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Had a short outing this evening. Sat on a veranda and waited for some rabbits to come out from under the deck I was sitting on. Was onLy shooting at 11 or 13 yards, but had a shed 14y in front of me, and a spa bath, and 13y to my left was a horse standing there looking at me, and of course the folks sitting in the lounge behind me. So I had a few things to work around. Been spending a bit of time with the Pard DS 35, trying to set up a close range (5-20m) low power (4.5fpe) tune for rats and close range pigeons. I haven’t quite got it 100%, but it’s 98% which is close enough for now. I’ll perfect it in the next few days. So I decided to use that low power level this evening. Only 1 rabbit emerged from under the deck, and it didnt hang around long enough for a shot, but I did managed to get 4 on the outskirts of the garden and through the fence just in the paddock. Longest shot was 19yards. A little 8.44gr doing 503fps, giving 4.47FPE at the muzzel, is still lethal at 19y. Shot through the left eye and into the brain and it just stiffened up and rolled over, dead as a door nail. 4.5 foot pounds guys, that’s all you need 😂😂😂 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2023 at 10:39pm
| You could upload videos to you tube, then make them visible only to ones with the link. Paste the link here and we get to watch. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2023 at 10:57pm
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Hmmmm would that be the same through the body? Personally I won't go below 5fpe at target. Thats about 3.8 fpe at target. I'd say that is getting pretty dodgy if shot is off slightly. Leave those low power shots to you I think. Nice shooting anyway. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2023 at 6:52pm
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The tests I did on rabbit kadavers at 10m with 4.5fpe JSB exacts showed penetration through the vitals, so still lethal shots. But at 10 to 20m why would you not take a head shot? ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2023 at 8:03pm
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Me because Im still mostly shooting hares. Open paddock. Not from one spot. Not always good angles so body shot allows me more Lee way. It stops the animal thrashing around a lot more. Brain short circuits make them dance. Heart/lung don't (as a general rule). From my experiance anyway. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2023 at 10:46pm
What broke?
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Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2023 at 2:19pm
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Mag wasnt indexing properly, wasnt moving the full amount to get the next pellet lined up with the breech, so the pellet probe was wasnt lining up with the hole in the mag and couldnt close the side lever. I took the indexing mechanism apart and that brass "post" is the part that slides up and down. The copper strip "finger" lying next to it is supposed to be attached to it, and is what actually contacts the magazine and pushes the drum up one "click". According to you tube (  ) the copper finger fatigues and gets a little bent out of shape over time, and does then not complete the "push" to index the magazine. It can be gently bent back into shape with a long nosed pliers, which I tried, but alas the copper "finger" gave me the finger and said it had had enough.Its a 2015 model rifle, so I'm guessing its had a few (thousand) pellets through it and that little finger has had to work for every pellet, and it was probably just its time. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2023 at 12:17pm
Replacement part just arrived. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2023 at 12:42pm
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I see there is an upgrade for S410’s and S510’s for this indexing post. New one has a solid arm. Oh well, my new one is in and working. If it goes again I’ll try get the upgraded part.  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2023 at 11:09pm
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Little Elly’s been out there doing the business again tonight… Finally stopped raining and the fricken wind eventually died, thank goodness! Went out for a cull and got 32 rabbits and a possum. I’ve never considered my self to be a “long distance” shooter, it wasn’t that long ago that 30m was my comfort zone for head shots, but I dropped a rabbit with a good head shot at 74yards tonight. I’m well chuffed with that! ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2023 at 11:25pm
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That's pretty good. was that 72 m with power on high? |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2023 at 4:00pm
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Ja definatly on high power 👍🏻 with an 8.44gr exact doing 813fps, that’s 12.3fpe at muzzel. Would be interesting to know what the speed and fpe is at 70m. I was consistently hitting a 10cm spinner in strong gusting wind yesterday afternoon at 70m, so with a bit more practise and on a calm windless night I’d feel confident to try a shot. I’m also trying really hard to find some 10gr slugs, but NO ONE in NZ has any. And all the overseas shops I’ve emailed say they won’t courier to NZ. So frustrating. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2023 at 8:27pm
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There is a guy down south that makes slugs. Spyda. Have you tried him? He may not doo .177 though. That S510 certainly delivering the goods for you. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2023 at 10:51pm
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I have been in contact with Brian from Spyda, and he is very kindly going to make me up some .177 slugs. The lightest he can make is 12.4gr (I think) But I’m very keen to give them a try 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 I was back out IN THE WIND again tonight. So fricken frustrating. 30 pellets for 17 rabbits, and would have had more if the wind wasn’t pumping and the moon wasn’t full. But hey, I only got rained on once, so that was a bonus 😂😂😂 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |